There is also no commission that my company had to pay to hire me. Software Engineer Track. I'm sure this is true for many positions, but I'd resist the temptation to cast this across the broader job market. I've hired two people out of Hack Reactor and they were both awesome. You have to be critical and fight the right people, but all four have proven to be amazing additions to the team and wise beyond their years. Running an educational program is hard, I agree. Out of the dozens of NSS grads who have been hired, the vast majority found their opportunities through networking or from companies that have relationships with the school and reach out directly for their junior position needs. They primarily use Java and Groovy. Elon Musk's response in this thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2rgsan/i_am_elon_musk...) rings true. I’ve applied in the past. And it is incredibly successful. Junior starting salary is also a far cry below 100K USD, but then again we don't have to live in San Francisco. In the most general sense, significant algo/data structure knowledge was necessary to even make it through first round interviews. I don't think so. All of them are productive junior people, who will probably go on to have good careers in the field. Related: Elite colleges can afford to enroll more low-income students. I probably wouldn't do it again, as we spent too much time teaching them some programming basics, but I don't regret hiring them. However in the end I was overruled by others unfamiliar with the specific technology and relying only on raw years of experience numbers. And if you guys are doing a really excellent job of it over, say, 10 weeks the way I look at it is this: the potential hire is an entry level person who has about a 3 month jump on the approx 2 years it will take to make a developer out of them. Some of them are people who were working in science, doing research and matlab programming, and wanted to make a career switch. These "Income Share Agreements" are hotly debated, with proponents saying the model will greatly reduce student debt and critics arguing it's a slippery slope that smacks of indentured servitude. Overall, you will get a better developer out of a bootcamp than you will get from someone who has endeavoured to build the same skills on their own, especially in that same amount of time. We're covering the App Academy interview and application process with input from our Q&As with App Academy alumni and founder, Kush Patel. It means you'll have a non-technical boss. It really depends on the program and the thesis requirements. And smart, voracious people who are eager to learn and better themselves quickly outclass everyone else. Good for her. We've hired a few as test engineers, and I think results have been quite positive. I'm excited to see what they come up with :). From the eight, we hired four. I don't think most companies really care about the degree unless they have an obstinate manager. As an App Academy graduate, I can confirm this. It's a bet against several factors that are nearly impossible to be certain about in any hiring situation, but there are several up-sides to the candidates that we've seen. All content of the Dow Jones branded indices © S&P Dow Jones Indices LLC 2019 and/or its affiliates. App Academy Review: App Academy Location. More open spots, less developers means a big leap in what companies need to pay to get warm bodies in seats. At the time, it seemed like a good way to grab otherwise smart people who missed out on CS in college, and give them the opportunity to retrain. I went to a coding boot camp in Omaha, Nebraska of all places. Hire from smaller programs that get a commission - not tuition. (Disclosure: I'm a college dropout who went through Hack Reactor and can, for the first time, afford a comfortable lifestyle). yes! I know someone that went to the Software Craftsmanship Guild. So unless they are blatantly lying or fudging the statistics somehow, it's not BS. I'd also expect him to be able to read the language implementations source code. I know most if not all of the instructors and staff read HN so hopefully they read this and reevaluate how they handle graduates. >Does anyone get hired? However, I know that from the immersive course (UX Design Immersive and Web Design Immersive) which are all full time, many students get jobs. Has that changed? I've had a few of my students get hired as a direct result of their coursework at Bloc, one whom I was able to place with a consulting firm myself. Takeaway: Bootcamps can only do so much. I don't know how good are these bootcamps, and I'm not sure if all the comments here included are real or just bootcamps trying to defend their business. That kid who posted about the nightmare at Coding House did the whole community a big favor. > But if people practiced them more, they would realized that there is only 10-20 questions that you can be asked, and everything else is just some minor variation of the most common questions, and you don't specialized training to do project Euler or glassdoor.com questions. "There are a lot of benefits to doing a program like this versus a classical CS education.". For me, a problem that would be a 1 would be something printing "Hello World!" They are intensive, 60-80 hour a week programs with a very low acceptance rate. Computer science degrees (as a whole) have been greatly devalued recently. Not necessarily. If we are hiring for single spots, we need experienced developers. The entry-level candidate might even apply for the senior level job posting, whereas a senior candidate is unlikely to apply for entry-level jobs. There is full transparency that the clients are getting developers with limited experience, and they are still willing to pay a premium because of the bootcamp. I'll be more than happy to update this in the future however. I don't think I'm underestimating it at all. An immersive experience gives you the trunk and several branches, and then frees you up to go deep into whatever you care about. Can I reapply if rejected? My plan was to save up for Hack Reactor or similar (I have some experience, but not professionally, and no CS degree) but I had the opportunity to do this one for free. Later along the "career path", though, is sometimes where the value of a CS education (which is not === a CS degree) presents - in the form of fitting the more abstract goals and problems one encounters with patterns, structures and practices one learns in CS. he did the WDI course and has nothing but good things to say about it :)). 3) Confidence issues: It takes years for people to be comfortable with engineering. What stops someone from creating a PR or fork with the answers? Properly vetting who would be a good student is hard (admissions), properly teaching people is hard, and creating a proper learning environment is also very hard (Most education institutions fail at one or more of the above). Granted, I have a lot of years of business experience but I would honestly say that I ranked somewhere in the middle of my class at Hack Reactor. But the App Academy acceptance rate is less than 5%- so applicants need to ace the coding challenges to be admitted. Most people don't need to invent new structures. At least do it to help other students avoid paying a bunch of money for a bad experience. Being stuck in a room with 30 really smart people who are sleep deprived and being forced to do yoga after a marathon coding session is not easy. A free inside look at App Academy salary trends based on 66 salaries wages for 33 jobs at App Academy. I highly recommend them. Here's why: Any way you can get experience is a plus. >Our experience was good. It is very, very apparent within just a minute if the applicant did not actually write their own solution. I feel like you're more likely to get a poor non-CS candidate this way. I've seen this with university programs. I was so turned off by that experience that I just never even considered hiring from a 'hacker bootcamp' again. We essentially got both of them for the price of one senior dev. I'd be very interested to hear if Flatiron has some groundbreaking new way to teach the Rails stack. Which is what I want most in a junior dev - a way to move forward when you get stuck. App Academy today (Feb. 1) announced that it is running a bootcamp prep program, guaranteeing participants acceptance into a coding bootcamp or their money back. Inherent talent, 2. That said, after attending a dozen or more of these hiring events I must admit that the quality is abysmally low. General Assembly and App Academy both have acceptance rates of 15%. I did some coding before the school and attended a lot of the hacker events before I made the career switch. He had gone to Princeton, did great in school, had a perfect score on the SAT's, knew about Public Health, etc. In my workgroup, I think only one has a degree in computer science - at least two don't have any degrees, one of them being an excellent senior engineer. But man am I envious of pretty much every other profession... Basically: if I were not already in this position (handed it on a platter), I wouldn't aspire to it. First off, I think it varies quite widely on the school. We include all students that have abided by … The only one I give any credit to is the Nashville Software School because they are a not for profit and have a much longer program. Not cool. When I look at candidates (on all levels), I don't necessary need the most experienced person in the world. Essentially what I am doing at my job is more complex list processing and analysis. I have a Flatiron guy on my team as an FE dev and he's been pretty good. Our flagship program teaches students who have on average ~2yrs of experience writing code professionally, and our hiring partners offer them >$75k/yr in Seattle (on average, though the spread is interesting...detailed stats here --> https://www.codefellows.org/alumni-stats). The "Rails dev in 12 weeks" pitch understandably sounds like a scam at first glance. http://zedshaw.com/2014/10/19/the-coming-code-bootcamp-destr... To give you an idea about what kind of juniority is attractive to a shop like ours: We run our own in-house internship program which takes 9 months. Sure you start at 50K, but you will move up fast. Top programs like the Flatiron school are NOT a walk in the park. It's easier for a fresh developer to make a contact and open up a job than it is to fight with others for an already-open spot. The ability to work with experienced devs and get that level of mentorship will always produce a better developer than someone trying to achieve the same level of wisdom and skill independently. It just doesn't seem like there is enough demand for inexperienced talent to make this kind of program effective. When the bootcamp itself has an investment in the attendee, things are likely to be different. But there's another big risk: Tuition plans that collect different amounts from students for the same training are technically illegal in New York and California, where App Academy operates. Apologies for out-pedanting you, but I believe it is still called the past tense. > And why do most companies still ask for "at least a Bachelors in CS" for web and mobile development positions? It's also a risk -- but Patel says it's one that often pays off, as students can command salaries in the $85,000 to $110,000 range. They don't have that much to do with each other. The deepest learning is very personal and requires effort, solitude, and time. I cannot possibly imagine how bored a real python expert would be, taking care of something like that. They are doing JavaScript web app development. Additionally, the idea that 'most companies' require a CS degree for web devs is just not true. Those who have had small epiphanies share them, and hopefully it avalanches. Now am a remote Ruby Dev living in my dream city with a dream career. "[It's] a win-win.". Founders: Marco Morawec and Ken Mazaika. Bootcamps can be produce incredible results if they are done well, but ultimately it comes down to having the right people go through the camps and having the right people teach them. Because our company was in a unique hiring period, it made sense. Furthermore, I doubt job security is very good for these roles. He might be able to wire up a dynamic website with some GUI callbacks but I doubt he could actually design a program. I made sure to go above and beyond on the project, and at the end of the engagement the financial firm offered me a full time position as a Senior Front End Developer making ~$125k plus a 12% annual bonus. According to Flatiron School’s most recent Jobs Report (November 2014), 91% of the bootcamp’s job seeking graduates were placed within 120 days of graduation. If the market correct's itself, it is going to be on the "School" side, because CS degree education is broken. * Each year, students study for 40 weeks. I just don't mention the boot camp, unless explicitly asked. I was basically at the same technical level as the developers that had been at the client for 3-6 years. We treat our QA department as kind of a software engineering farm team. If anyone can speak from experience, what are some of the subjects that aren't taught in depth enough at these bootcamps? Currently, we have junior developers from this program working on GQ magazine, Glamour, and our in-house CMS system. That said, a BS from a decent CS program has some value, if only as a filter. So far people seem happy with how things are going. And that's exactly what she is. I have friends who have done them & gotten hired -- nowhere near 100k tho. This is a PAID program (yes, we pay them) because the individuals work with a highly experienced mentor on client projects, much like an internship. The confusion here probably comes from the past tense phrasing. Beyond simply opening doors, we work hard with our students to build networking skills and an understanding of the job market so that they also how to create job openings for themselves. I went through the first run of the program in 2013 and have been a consultant since I graduated. If you look around on job boards, there simply is not much competition for entry-level talent. Job Placement at App Academy vs Flatiron School. Top programs are more selective for a reason. Don't settle for the easiest bootcamp to get into. Actually I find it quite fascinating that these programs exist and seem to be successful. And if you did end up needing multiple entry-level hires, it sounds like you would be open to a similar approach? Theirs is a little different, however, as they expect some prior programming and a fair amount of math, so it's fairly difficult to get into. 40 App Academy reviews. "We wouldn't do it again" strongly implies "If we were in the same situation as before we wouldn't do the same thing.". We also treat the internship as a real internship, not a contract-to-hire. For example, less than two weeks into the course, my partner and I wrote an N-Queens Solver in Javascript, using bitwise logic. I think that's extremely evident in the students they send out into the world. We will continue to hire from them, though we do use a slightly different hiring procedure. That may be true, but are there also some things that you might miss doing this versus a traditional CS track? None of it is a particular challenge, but it could be tedious. I was so surprised at the offer I called the developer who offered me the job just to make sure he knew about my terrible educational background. When she was about half a dozen years out of college she went to Maker Square in Austin where she learned Rails and JavaScript and HTML/CSS and how to use Git alongside teammates. This can help open doors that are otherwise very hard to find when you are learning on your own. Off the top of my head, over the course of interviews with a handful of companies, I had to do several dynamic programming questions, topological sort, a couple of backtracking questions, and a seemingly never-ending number of other tree/graph questions. 1) These are motivated people. > And if it's really possible to build a rails developer from scratch in 10 weeks, why not just just do it in-house through an internship program? Also, my girlfriend teaches at Zipfian Academy (http://www.zipfianacademy.com/), a data science bootcamp, and so far they legitimately have a 100% placement rate. The third person couldn't catch on to it fast enough. Historically, the clients had little choice who showed up for their projects when working with larger consulting shops. But as the debate rages, for App Academy, Patel says the deferred tuition model is important for students who may not have the tuition cash up front. Sorry your experience was bad. Not only are they challenging in technical sense, but emotionally intense. Would that go beyond what you expect of a candidate? The best case is still awful: The company is being dishonest about its requirements. Personally, I had gone through most of an Electrical Engineering program. Worse, we got some initial false positives because one of the questions I asked was the very simple but classic fizzbuzz test. I went to Hack Reactor because I wanted to make a real go of my career. Maybe if they've already graduated with a technical degree, or minored in CS, but not for someone who's worked for 15 years as a legal secretary, etc. I came from one of these bootcamps, GA specifically. This is incorrect -- web jobs are growing quickly. First, let's put some standards to what a scale of 1-10 would be. Hey, I wanted to offer the perspective of an instructor at General Assembly - I guess take my response with a grain of salt, but I'll do my level best to be objective. Three people asked the same question, so I updated the post after. Last summer, I successfully applied to both a graduate program as well as a bootcamp. If they can take someone through their thought process for whatever decisions they made, they're likely going to be a good programmer. Most of the job growth appears to be in academic stuff like AI and data science which requires at the very least a BS and probably an MS. Like you said, universities aren't interested in teaching you the skills that you need. Where this school did lack however, is the staff. And why do most companies still ask for "at least a Bachelors in CS" for web and mobile development positions? The participants need to be inquisitive, hard-working, and quick-learners, and the teachers need to be passionate about their craft and domain experts. Either way, just keep pushing forward, it will be worth it, trust me. They also teach you data structures and algorithms- not as much as a computer science degree might, but by learning how to code, you learn how to look things up and apply them. I'm a recent App Academy graduate and everyone gets a job. Their staff had people contributing to the linux kernel and git, which gave us a lot more confidence. >Average starting salaries of 100k or more It seems like you're confusing listed job requirements with actual hiring practices. But all in all, not a bad place to spend a couple of years when you're inexperienced! I went to gain deep web experience, work in crossfunctional teams, and have a safe place to fortify the foundational soft skills which are absolutely essential for productive software developers. And yet, looking around, there don't seem to be many jobs for entry-level Rails or iOS developers. But you're correct. I definitely believe it is realistic to get a programming job without a degree in computer science or a related field. someone with a BS can do a 1 year engineering masters). They do need to know how to think about computers and what the typical data structures are. Maybe I got lucky, but I've found that the ability to code is slightly less important than one's ability to speak about programming/code in general. Seeing that many of these bootcamps either they implied to commit full-time, either they were USA-based, either their curriculums were super-easy, I tried to look for specific help in places like Codementor (https://www.codementor.io/r/5HXQM64N3R referral link! I'm in that situation and mostly worked in network, sysadmin & security and also got an LIS so I'm quite removed from the front-end/back-end relationship on a practical level and would like to start some projects and be able to use things like node.js to solve common/daily issues quickly. I can’t speak to how everyone in this industry recruits, but I can share what I’ve seen in my experience with Bitmaker Labs over the past two years: - The number of open web development positions is exceptionally high and the barriers to entry (i.e. In the end I think this is a pretty decent, if imperfect, way to add quality junior employees. Running an educational program is hard, I agree. Most are switching careers, but have already ironed out some important pieces of their adult life. I live and work in a city of 300K people. I wouldn't hire someone just because they'd graduated from a decent CS program either, it's just a reasonable proxy for some of the skills (but not others) they will need to become a developer over time. At the golden gate ruby conference I spoke to people who said they thought that the boot amp people they hired were better than college grads. What programming language they know isn't relevant. One of the benefits that you are getting from a bootcamp is the immersive opportunity to build practical skills building apps under the mentorship of experienced devs. Your company doesn't make money by providing bootcamp services. When I was interviewing over the summer, the VAST majority of candidates I got for my mid-level rails position were from one of these bootcamps. English past tense (a grammatical form) can be used in several situations, the dominant being signalling past. Check out what we're doing at www.elevenfifty.com. Most of these schools are ~12 weeks but I think an additional month would be better suitable. I positioned myself as an intermediate dev, and received an offer. It’s more like 20-120. When my boss asked me to checkout one of the developer bootcamps as a potential partner I decided to apply. I didn't expect that though. She's still there and the company has raised multiple bigger funding rounds. When he figured out he liked coding, he did the work to get in and completed the program in SF. Workweeks were expected to be around 90-100 hours. We hired a junior developer from Flatiron School in NYC. There's a Detroit employer running a bootcamp to take Cobol developers and retain them for IOS. I think he accepted a different offer and relocated--unfortunately, another case of management not listening to the front-line troops (but not so for him, as he's better off elsewhere). min 5 years of Ruby experience for a junior level job) and have little interest in training. I'm a Hack Reactor alum. The average starting salary of $100,000 sounds like BS. The parent post was later edited to add a third (middle) sentence. The last place I worked (I finally left this past August) certainly was looking at such candidates. I went to a bootcamp called refactorU and got hired out of the gate. In my case (long time ago), I did a Masters at a different school and it was very typically a two year program--basically one year of classes and one year of mostly thesis/directed study. Strange I thought that's what a masters degree was - a bachelors + 1 year. App Academy. I think the short timeline is the biggest factor in that. Do her initials happen to be AK, from Nashville? I just finished such a bootcamp and I'm looking for a job. Hey there - I'm a mentor for Android and Frontend Web Development at Bloc. Which rather puts the £8k fees in an unflattering perspective, but there you go. Their development since has been comparable to other junior devs. Number one take away I see is that companies are desperate for developers and the job reqs are often a wish list and not set in stone. Data-point: I went to Makers Academy (in London) and was hired eight days after telling their hiring advisor that I was ready to start looking for a job. We’re talking somewhere like 20% or 30% for these acceptance rate into these top schools. Running an educational program is hard, I agree. I realize that some extremely exceptional people can complete a masters degree in one year, but I don't think I'd ever hire someone who came out of a program that was _designed_ to be completed in one year. "companies have high hiring standards that border on the unreasonable (e.g. I remember having CS professors that couldn't code themselves out of a box, but they "taught" the material they were supposed to teach. We'd probably do it again at some point but our engineering team is not big enough to absorb too many junior devs and train these. YES - we have hired out of Flatiron school. Bootcamps are only emerging in Los Angeles at the moment with General Assembly being the only one there last time I did reaearch. Something I can't say about everyone I work with. I commited myself to get something up and running in a server in 2 months, and I did it (. I picked launch academy over app academy, but I think it just came down to personal preference. Now the age that most people are graduating and becoming junior devs, I am senior dev without a degree leading a team of 6 made up of top CS program grads. How can I update my application? Established in 2012, App Academy is similar to Hack Reactor in that in a short period of time, it’s students pick up essential programming skills to become proficient software engineers. You can't compress years or months into days, and you can only get so far before you have to slow down and synthesize. I would be very surprised if the curriculum was wildly different amongst bootcamps. Two of my previous employers decided to hire our entry-level engineers from these "bootcamps" and 6 months later all of them had been fired for poor performance, even after weeks of mentorship and coaching. I spent about a month looking for a job. IMO the hardest part is just getting used to programming without any outside resources on a whiteboard. Purdue University launched its "Back a Boiler" program for the 2016-2017 school year, which funds upperclassmen willing to repay tuition via a percentage of their salaries for 10 years or less. The underlying concept is still the same - a company trains competent developers and gets a premium for doing so. Have hired twice from them, both are total winners. A total newbie who goes through the program can't come out as a full-fledged developer, but we have brought them in as QA/Automation engineers and then promoted to developer after 9-12 months. - Really good faculty that cared not just about tech, but about teaching I also can't speak to graduates of other schools. The reason we chose them was because they were smart and moldable. 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